The Literal and the Energetic
Lo literal y lo energético
A conversation about how non-dual teachings turn out to be startlingly literal rather than poetic, and about the mysterious energetics that arise between people in this work.
The Literal and the Energetic
A conversation about how non-dual teachings turn out to be startlingly literal rather than poetic, and about the mysterious energetics that arise between people in this work.
I wanted to share something that has happened several times. We would be walking along, or one time we were actually swimming in the ocean at night, and I would feel this thing. It sounds really strange, but this was truly and literally my experience: I felt like there was a location, somewhere in the air above us, between us, and it kept pulling my attention. I kept looking up, thinking, "What the hell is that?"
Before my partner's shift, I used to say to him on several occasions, "I feel like your center of gravity is right there, about four inches above the top of your head." I used to get annoyed. I would say, "You're in your head. Where are you?" But this thing happened after the shift, and it kept pulling my attention beyond, outside of my own wish for it to do so. I kept wondering, "What is that? Where are you?" And he would say something cryptic like, "How do you know that's me? Maybe that's you."
So I thought, "Okay, well, maybe it is." And what happens if I feel into that as if it's me? That was the first time I remember doing that, when we were in the ocean. What happened next was really dramatic: a huge amount of feeling just welled up and released, and then there was this really beautiful, peaceful state.
The second time it happened, we were joking about it. He said, "Well, how do you know it's me?" And I said, "I don't know it's you, but I know where I am!" We were laughing, and he said, "Yeah, well, maybe that's the problem." It really reminded me of what you were discussing: "Is it the teacher? Is that you?" But it's so literal. That's why I was laughing earlier about the books on the shelf. It is so literal.
Question (second student): What do you mean by "so literal"?
Question (continued): When you read someone like Nisargadatta and it sounds like pure, beyond simplicity, it's just literal. That's what it is.
Let me say a few words about the literal thing.
The literal thing
My teacher spoke in all kinds of styles. He could go into quantum physics and build a whole teaching around that. He could be super poetic, super non-dual; he could talk politics, fantasy, archetypes, beings. It was all over the place.
But through all of that, and probably because of that style, a lot of things were said that you didn't quite know where to place. Much of it was always very confusing, and he always emphasized that it was intentionally confusing: if you think you understood, you're probably confused. That was the point.
Then at some point, after this shift in me, I went back to listen to him, and it was like night and day. It was like, "Holy cow, he's been literally pointing to this nonstop, and I didn't see it." It's so literal. I could see now where he had been going around and around in order to create a context so that he could then do the literal thing. And whenever he did the literal thing, I realized I used to interpret it as poetic and abstract. Then it all got reversed. The stuff that had seemed more real was the poetics, and the stuff that had seemed poetic was the literal.
And that's interesting, because we've often talked about you being quite a literal-minded person. Do you think that actually helped you?
I don't know. Probably. I really can't know. For me it might have helped, but it might not for others.
But what is it in your experience to be literal-minded? What is that?
I'm not sure. To me it has to do with clarity, precision, and truth at a certain level (not absolute truth).
Question (second student): Maybe being literal means there are fewer interpretations going on?
Direct pointing
Yes, because it has to do with very direct pointing. Things that could be said briefly and seem very true, as true as you could say in words. "This is it." To me, "This is it" used to sound like, "Sure, that's inspiring, sounds good, let's go!" No. It is literal. It is the answer to all your questions. It's this. But what is this? It's this. Every time, it's this. And that's very literal.
There are many other things that could be said that way. Someone once left a comment on one of my videos saying something like, "Anyone can sound brilliant with non-dual speak. What idiots." I actually thought it was pretty funny, because the video was doing exactly that: being so literal. The video was titled "There Are No Objects," and I was holding a cup, saying, "This is not an object." My interpretation of the comment was: "Of course that's an object, you idiot. You sound brilliant, but you're an idiot because you're saying there's no object while holding an object in your hand."
For me it was funny because that's exactly the problem. It literally is not an object. That is a direct pointing. The experience is that it is not an object. Then conceptually, yes, that's an object. There is a relative dimension where that is an object. But I was talking in the video about direct experience.
Question (second student): I find that drives the mind absolutely crazy. "This is not an object." Where do I go from here? I just hit a wall. The mind doesn't know what to do with that.
That's another example of literalness. When my teacher would say stuff like that, I would think, "Well, it's probably some level of poetry pointing to something abstract over there that I'm not getting." No. It's actually very direct and very literal.
I used to read that kind of thing or hear it and think, "Oh, this is the experience of a person who has that kind of realization, and it's just peace and love and butterflies all the time. That's why they speak this way." Now I don't think of it that way. I think they're just seeing what is. It's like: do you know what that is? Yes, we know it's called a cup. But do you know what that is? No, you don't.
One teacher titled one of his latest meditations something like, "Meditation is when you are in a place of not knowing."
He probably said "not knowing what you are," or at least it was implicit. It's not knowing what you are that it addresses. And the thing is, when you don't know what you are, you don't really know what anything is.
The energetics
Now tell us about the orb.
Well, there are just a lot of wild mysteries around energetics in this work. The reality is that this experience, whatever this is, has all kinds of energies moving. I could write a book on all the really strange esoteric energetics, but I wouldn't, because it's totally a distraction. There is just so much. I've learned to respect that and not care too much about it at the same time: to let energetics move, not deny them, not push them away, and let them be what they are.
It wasn't really an orb anyway.
I know, I know. But energetics are very real. The thing that happened for me is that I discovered they were real when I was quite young, with my teacher. But I always felt there was a really strong division: for somebody like him there are energetics, for somebody like me, not so much. Then I started to realize it's all of us. All of this is energetics.
Energetics can get amplified. The more we do this work, the more it gets amplified. It becomes this ocean of energetics that starts affecting everything around. You're affecting me, I'm affecting you. There's this whole movement of mutual influence. When we come together in a group like this, even though there's physical distance, there's a place where there isn't physical distance, because the deeper reality is that there is no distance. The energetics are very real, and that's what you were describing.
It happens, and it's really mysterious. It's often not talked about much, and I'm not sure why. It's very hard to understand or know anything about it, but it happens all the time. When we get together on a Wednesday like this, it's like a soup that starts to spread, and it's all of us.
It happens in retreats, it happens spontaneously. That's what can feel very blissful if we are open to it. For me it's very ecstatic, very blissful. But I remember in the past, in the presence of my teacher, there would be a lot of turmoil, because it was bringing things up. That energetic getting activated in me, in that presence (which is my own energetic), starts to move things I'm not comfortable with. That's how it was for me then.
But now, when we sit here on a Wednesday, which is pretty much the only time I meditate (though I'm meditating a little more lately because I'm under a lot of pressure with work), it's very blissful. Flesh-like bliss, bliss in the flesh. And at the same time, when that's not there, I don't care at all. I really understand that "no preference" at that level of experience. Whether there's palpable flesh-bliss or not, it's completely fine.
The energetics can get really tricky because they could be a huge distraction. But also, have fun with it.
Question (second student): For me, whatever happens, I try to use it for this, if you know what I mean. If some energetic, ecstatic thing happens, enjoy it, but it's not about that. It's about this, whatever the hell it is. And if something is a big bummer, then use that to wake up. Everything is so useful. The ecstatic thing? It's gone like that, so that's not it. The bummer? Use it. Everything is useful. It just depends on our attitude.
It's you
To the question of the orb: if I were to call it something, I would say it's the energetic that all of this is, which might at one moment be more directly palpable and known. And at the same time, it's you, it's me, it's us. It's the third thing between you. And at some moment it seemed like you tapped that directly, and that's when things shifted for you. But it's you, too.
I was talking to my teacher about it, and she said, "It's you." And I said, "Well, then how come it only happens when I'm with him?" And she said, "Some people can just reflect more of you."
Beautiful.
But I don't think you were saying it was not you either.
No, not at all.