Layers of Identification
Capas de identificación
A conversation about how the sense of self is gradually seen through, from coarse identification to increasingly subtle layers, and why intellectual curiosity about the process differs from direct seeing.
Layers of Identification
A conversation about how the sense of self is gradually seen through, from coarse identification to increasingly subtle layers, and why intellectual curiosity about the process differs from direct seeing.
There are different layers of ways in which we can identify, so disidentification is typically a gradual peeling off. Nothing is really peeled, but the illusion can be very thick, and then it can become more subtle. What that means is that the kinds of thoughts we identify with become more ephemeral.
Think of a rock rolling down a hill. Now imagine a river with a cloudy spot of turbulence. Those are metaphors for the kinds of mental constructs we can identify with. One is a brute, solid identification. This is where everybody begins.
The need for a stable foundation
For people who don't have proper psychological development, the challenge is actually to form a more solid identification. This is where psychologists are experts, and where you find the various disorders that arise. There needs to be some ground in the identification process. There might be exceptions. I think there are exceptions, such as people who are very young and wake up. But in general, a natural development of the identification process is needed, because it needs to be transcended.
The body-mind needs to have a function of location, of agency, of a sense of self. But what this work is about is seeing that the self is a construct. It is not a true self. It appears to be a self.
To put it in scientific terms: it appears that there is a solid wall, an object, air between them, and that they are separate. But a physicist will know there is absolutely no separation anywhere. It is one continuous field. It appears to be something it is not.
The body-mind constructs a perspective and a function of agency, of location, of an integrity. It is an image of thought integrated with the sensations of the body and the functioning of movement. But the task is to see that what appears to be "me," appears to be a self, is not one.
Subtle layers and the loss of meaning
Since the disidentification can become more and more subtle, it will generally come together with more and more release and relief from the sense of suffering and contraction. But as it comes closer to the end of the identification, there can also be a depressive aspect to it, because a great deal of the sense of meaning comes from the identification.
I realized that the question I asked was really coming from a mechanical curiosity, and from your answer I could see it wasn't actually helpful. I was asking about something very specific, and who cares? It was just, "How does that work?" But the basic answer is: it's a mystery. In the guided meditation, you pointed to some very specific things that were extremely helpful, and now as well. But my question was a side street.
It is very natural for some people to approach this as another kind of problem to understand intellectually.
For the most part I don't do that, actually. I have the inclination, but I've been burned by it so many times that I usually resist. This time I thought I would follow the intellectual curiosity and see what happens. And sure enough, I realized I really don't care at the end of the day. I thought maybe you could expand my mind, but it has nothing to do with mind expansion. I could take mushrooms if I wanted to expand my mind.
Directing the seeing, not expanding the thinking
Expanding your thinking isn't useful. It is about directing where you are looking, directing your seeing.
And that is what you do so well in the guided meditations and in these answers. It is so pointed, almost surgical. So I thought I would get a little more of a push, but it was coming from the wrong place. It was actually helpful to see that.
What you are describing is probably because I have gone down so many roads of thought, thinking the answer was there, and so I am familiar with them.
There are infinite paths of thought. It reminds me of something. I was quite young, only a couple of years into studying with my teacher. He asked a question in a group, and I was sitting right next to him. I blurted out an answer, and he said, "That is correct. Your mind knows it, but do you?" I thought, "What? How can my mind know it and I don't?"
Exactly. That is it. Thank you.
What came up for me during the guided meditation was exactly this. It is not about doing it right. It is about the seeing, exactly as you were saying. I asked a question that felt iffy, and by asking it, I got to see the iffiness of it. That is perfect: not avoiding, but going forward.
Exactly. And you go.